On the Co-Opting of Holy Days.

On ISCA, we are engaged in a debate regarding the nature of holidays like Easter and Christmas. I copy here a few of the posts, made by myself and others, that I think demonstrate the issues best. (Note that my username is Jubilee.)

Apr 14, 2006 16:22 from DaAfrican
Well, it’s called “Good” Friday because it was “good” that Jesus died for the sins of mankind. Without His death, man would not be redeemed and would only have access to God through keeping the Old Testament Law (which the Hebrews were consistently unable to do).

Despite this reality, all of these so-called “holy days” are problematic for me because 1.) they have pagan connections and 2.) they do not originate with Christ’s teachings or the teachings of His apostles.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144929

Apr 14, 2006 16:35 from DesCartes
Because anything worth doing was done or taught by Jesus and the apostles. If they didn’t do it, it’s not worth doing.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144930

Apr 14, 2006 16:36 from DaAfrican
DesCartes>

No, not saying that. But, most (maybe all) things done in the name of Christianity should have some basis in Jesus’ teachings. I think Jesus’ endorsement of Easter & Christmas wouldn’t hurt.

Moreover, when I see some of the practices that occur on these days, I am hard pressed to see the “Christianness” of these so-called holy days.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144931

Apr 14, 2006 17:20 from Mortika
Well, start with “Do This in Memory of Me.”

The Passion was the central event of Jesus’ life, and its commemoration (and, in the case of the resurraction, celebration) is the central event of the Church’s Liturgy.

I guess we’re looking at things from entirely different perspectives. I can’t see anything *but* Christianity in the Triidium.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144932

Apr 14, 2006 17:19 from Vanity
Good Friday has “Pagan Connections”??!!! Mercy, what will they think of next.
Here’s the “pagan connection”: Good Friday is supposed to coincide with Pesach, the holiday of Passover in Jewish tradition.
Pesach is *the* oldest of the Jewish holidays, according to the Torah (Exodus 12) ordained by God, and its date firmly specified; it antedates even the giving of the Law at Sinai.
It is specified to be celebrated in the first month of the Jewish year, that is, the first lunation of the season of spring.

And, as everyone knows, the pagans invented the seasons! Yes, using a calendar is un-Christian! Flee from the diabolical season of spring!
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144933

Apr 14, 2006 22:19 from DaAfrican
C’mon, you know I’m not talking about studying the story of Jesus’ crucifixion. I’m talking about what *most* people think about in reference to Easter.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144939

Apr 14, 2006 22:21 from DaAfrican
You all seem to be very devout and all. However, Easter, as far as I can tell is more about chocolate, baskets, new suits, and the like than it is about the remembrance of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

From my understanding, the bunnies, the eggs, the bright new clothes, and the Spring-time celebrations have pagan origins, not Christian ones.

The remembrance of Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection is something that I celebrate throughout the year. Therefore, the only *special* things I seem to see around this time are *Passion plays* (some of which are good), easter bunnies, easter egg hunts, easter baskets, and some more crass consumerism that is MORE linked with pagan rituals than Christian celebrations. In fact, I don’t remember any Easter celebration in the Scripture. I do remember an apostle being killed around that time.

I want to make it clear that I am NOT referring to Jewish festivals like Passover and such. Of course Passover is related to Christ’s death, but the bunnies, chocolates, painted eggs, new suits and other such things are not.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144940

Apr 14, 2006 23:19 from DesCartes
That’s because you don’t celebrate holy days. If you celebrated holy days, then Easter is the most holy of holy days. If you don’t, it’s just another day, and all you get are the chocolate trappings of it.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144941

Apr 14, 2006 23:32 from Consumer
It is possible to celebrate Easter (or Christmas, for that matter) in both a holy and cultural way. Goto church in the morning, come home and partake in celebrations with the family.
If a family member’s birthday happened to fall on Easter, would you refuse to celebrate it with a party because it is a holy day?
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144942

Apr 14, 2006 23:33 from DaAfrican
Is *Easter* a holy day, or is the Christ’s resurrection a holy day?
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144943

Apr 14, 2006 23:34 from DaAfrican
Consumer>

Of course a birthday and Easter coinciding would not pose a problem. However, it seems to me that many people use Christ and Christianity as a reason for holidays that don’t at all seem to have originated with Christ or Christianity.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144945

Apr 14, 2006 23:36 from DesCartes
Why can’t they both be holy? Easter, because it marks Christ’s resurrection. The day of Christ’s resurrection because Christ rose on that day. Every Sunday, because we celebrate the Resurrection during worship.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144946

Apr 14, 2006 23:36 from DaAfrican
DesCartes>

They can, but are they the SAME holy day?
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144947

Apr 14, 2006 23:37 from DesCartes
Is that a problem with the holidays, or a problem with the people who celebrate them in a secular manner, not remembering the point of the holidays?

Some people take the Bible too literally, too, or reverence it almost to the point of idolotry. Is that a problem with the Bible, or with the people who don’t understand its proper place?
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144948

Apr 14, 2006 23:37 from DaAfrican
DesCartes>

How does *Easter* mark Christ’s resurrection? I mean, of course there are religious traditions that say this, but how can it mark much of anything when it changes every year.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144949

Apr 14, 2006 23:40 from DaAfrican
DesCartes>

It is a problem of both the holidays (some) AND the people who celebrate them. For instance, take Memorial Day. This day was (I believe) set aside by the federal government to commemmorate US soldiers who had fallen in wartime.

For someone to come along and make that the holiday to commemmorate peace activists seems counter to the origin of the holiday.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144950

Apr 14, 2006 23:50 from Vanity
You know, pagans didn’t really have chocolate bunnies, easter eggs, bonnets and flower baskets. All these things were invented by Christians. I know there’s a resistance to admitting that Christianity can develop novelties from within itself, but it’s still true. “Pagan” in this context just becomes a symbol whose real meaning is “not my kind of Christian”.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144951

Apr 15, 2006 00:00 from DesCartes
Easter, though, seems the worst example of this. It seems to me that the best time to celebrate Easter would be when it happened–right after the Passover. It’s not like Christmas, where a date was pulled out of the blue (or chosen to coincide with a pagan celebration at the same time). Passover occurs at a certain date, based on the lunar calendar. And then so that it coincides with Sunday (the day of the week of the Resurrection), Holy Thursday is set for Thursday, Good Friday is set for Friday, and Easter for that Sunday. Sure, the date for Holy Thursday doesn’t always correspond exactly to the modern observance of Passover, but it’s not too far off.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144954

Apr 15, 2006 00:00 from DaAfrican
DesCartes>

And, the range of dates available for Memorial Day, Thanksgiving, and basically every holiday are far less than that of Easter.

Vanity>

Christians start a lot of things. I’m sure you can find some “Christians” who burn crosses, others who protest at soldiers’ funerals, and still others who wish that someone would assassinate the leader of another country.

The fact that the people who make Easter bunnies are Christian does not offer any light on this discussion in my view, unless these self-same Christians are arguing that Easter bunnies fulfill some doctrine of Christianity that fits with this holiday. And maybe they can. I just haven’t heard what that is yet.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144955

Apr 15, 2006 00:08 from DaAfrican
DesCartes>

Why does it deviate from Passover some years? What is the spiritual significance of Easter bunnies? Chocolate eggs? Brand new suits? Bright colors?

Are their Christian philosophical origins for these practices or are they related to pagan Spring festivals?
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144956

Apr 15, 2006 00:30 from Lemony Snicket
>Why does Easter deviate from Passover some years?

The usual statement, that Easter Day is the first Sunday after the full moon that occurs next after the vernal equinox, is not a precise statement of the actual ecclesiastical rules. The full moon involved is not the astronomical Full Moon but an ecclesiastical moon (determined from tables) that keeps, more or less, in step with the astronomical Moon.

The ecclesiastical rules are:

Easter falls on the first Sunday following the first ecclesiastical full moon that occurs on or after the day of the vernal equinox; this particular ecclesiastical full moon is the 14th day of a tabular lunation (new moon); and the vernal equinox is fixed as March 21.
resulting in that Easter can never occur before March 22 or later than April 25. The Gregorian dates for the ecclesiastical full moon come from the Gregorian tables. Therefore, the civil date of Easter depends upon which tables - Gregorian or pre-Gregorian - are used. The western (Roman Catholic and Protestant) Christian churches use the Gregorian tables; many eastern (Orthodox) Christian churches use the older tables based on the Julian Calendar.
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/easter.html

________________________________________

According to the eighth-century theologian the Venerable Bede (who came up with the dating system of AD and BC), Easter is named for Eostre, an Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring. She is associated with the egg and with the hare, both symbols of procreation that have been enduringly incorporated by the church in the form of Easter eggs and the Easter bunny who brings them.

______________________________________

[Bible And Christianity> msg #144957

Apr 15, 2006 00:36 from Jubilee
Just a partial point that may be a bit off on its facts, but I was under the impression that part of the whole egg thing with Easter was that people gave up eating eggs for Lent, and so then Easter Sunday was the first day they ate them again. Why wouldn’t you decorate them?

Chocolate anything is getting off the topic. I mean, come on, it’s not just chocolate bunnies anymore. You can get chocolate Homer Simpson or Dora the Explorer for Easter now. How is that Easter-y?

Personally, I just like chocolate and I’ll take any excuse I can get to eat it.

But again, I would expect that the chocolate itself became part of Easter celebrations because people would give up eating such things during Lent, so Easter Sunday is the first day they can eat it.

If you really want us to, I’m sure we can turn everything that you’re complaining about into some kind of religious sign or symbol. For example, new dresses and suits? A physical sign of the new life we have through Christ’s resurrection. Eggs? Besides the Lent thing, they are a good metaphor for the Trinity as well as the Tomb. Rabbits? Well, that one I can’t think of right now but I’m sure someone else can come up with something.

Celebrating things like Easter and Christmas is not *wrong*. It is not a *sin* to participate in cultural events the way most Christians do, just as it’s not a *sin* to refuse to participate. Just recognise that Christianity is, by its very nature, influenced by the culture surrounding it. Faith *must* be influenced by culture - there’s no way to avoid that.

(Can you tell I’ve read a couple of chapters of my new book?)
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144958

Apr 15, 2006 15:02 from DaAfrican
Jubilee>

I don’t recall stating that celebrating ANY holiday was a sin. I merely argued that to simply change holidays with non-Christian origins into Christian holy days seems to leave those holidays, in my mind, as non-Christian.

My choice to celebrate or not to celebrate these holidays, which my research has tended to show a stronger pagan connection than what has been presented by posters here, is not a choice of sinning or not sinning.

Finally, it is not *chocolate* that is the issue. It is my understanding that bunnies, eggs, new suits, flowers are all symbols of Spring and the vernal equinox.

Some pagans who I know say they honor the “rebirth” of the earth every Spring by celebrating the new animal life (symbolized by bunnies and eggs), new plant life (symbolized by flowers, bright colors) and other symbols of Spring.

I thought that what happened was that the Catholic Church in its attempt to convert pagans, coopted their Spring festivals into a celebration of the resurrection, not of the earth and its fauna and flora, but of Jesus Christ.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144960

Apr 15, 2006 15:23 from Vanity
Just as I said — the pagans invented spring! Any recognition of the passing of the seasons is clear proof of paganism.
By that argument, the Jews who had celebrations marking the seasons, harvest and so on (like Sh’vuoth — equivalent to Christian Pentecost) were pagans too, and Christianity is founded on paganism. So why shouldn’t Christianity, being a pagan-based religion, celebrate these pagan holidays in a pagan manner? We can’t all be Gnostics, you know — that’s reserved for the spiritual elite.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144961

Apr 15, 2006 15:29 from DaAfrican
Vanity>

No one’s arguing that the pagans invented Spring. Nor that they invented Spring festivals. Just that they invented Easter.

You have the 4th of July and you have Juneteenth. Both are Independence Day celebrations. But they have two different origins and thus occur on two different dates and have different symbols and rituals that are connected to them.

You have Thanksgiving and you have Kwanzaa. Both are harvest celebrations. However, the origins are different, the culture is different, the dates and symbols connected to them are different.

And then you have Easter.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144963

Apr 15, 2006 15:34 from AndyB
I believe that the argument is that it was a “redemption” of the pagan festivals by taking the similar time (Christmas at the winter solstice etc) and celebrating something to do with Christianity at that time.

Easter and Pentecost are tied to the Jewish Passover and Feast of Weeks (early harvest) due to their origins, although due to the different methods of calculating Easter, the western Easter rarely coincides with the Jewish Passover. That said, I believe that the Eastern date for Easter often does.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144964

Apr 15, 2006 15:45 from Vanity
The reverse is true: the date calculated for Easter by Gregorian calendar often coincides with Passover, whereas the Julian calendar date, used in the Eastern Orthodox churches, never or almost never does. This has in fact been used as an argument on the Orthodox side for their method of calculation: they claim that Easter should *never* coincide with Passover. That would be too Jewish, I guess. In fact, it’s not a feature of the Orthodox calculation system present from the beginning, but just an accidental result of the length of the year in the Julian calendar being significantly longer than the actual length of the solar year.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144965

Apr 15, 2006 16:13 from DaAfrican
AndyB>

Yeah. I think that practice of “redeeming” pagan festivals irks me. I see it as a tool of conversion. Something you do to stop the “nasty pagans” from practicing their “old bad religion.”

It doesn’t strike me as something that is meant for the edification of the believers.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144966

Apr 15, 2006 16:37 from Jubilee
I guess I’m just too post-modern for you, DaAfrican.

I see no problem with co-opting cultural norms to become a part of Christian culture. It’s generally the only way to really understand where other people are coming from. And the only way for others to understand *us*.

Regardless, the fact remains that Easter, in and of itself, is *not* a co-opted pagan celebration, though some of the little things we include in our celebration thereof may have their origins in pagan traditions.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144967

Apr 15, 2006 17:04 from AndyB
Vanity> thanks very much. I believe the solar year is around 365.23 days or something, compared to the Julian 365.25 days, which approximates to 3 years in every 400, being the century years which are not leap years?

I think that Easter does borrow a little in symbolism; I think for example that egg rolling may have been adapted from a pagan custom to make people think of the stone rolling away from the door of the tomb.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144968

Apr 15, 2006 17:10 from Giraffe
DaAfrican: Is anyone requiring you to include bunnies and eggs in your Easter observance? I’m not sure what your complaint is.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144969

Apr 15, 2006 17:09 from AndyB
Apologies for the double - Gregorian calendar is based on a year of 365.2425 days, which does approximate to the solar year of 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, 45.51 seconds or 365.2422 days.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144970

Apr 15, 2006 17:21 from Vanity
The difference between the Julian year and the solar year amounted to 1 day every 128 years. The Julian calendar has drifted off by 15 days since Jesus’ time; that is, the nominal spring equinox in the Julian calendar is more than 2 weeks later than the actual spring equinox. As a result, Easter is usually going to be celebrated in the 2nd lunation after that, i.e. in the Jewish month of Iyyar, not in the month of Nisan.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144971

Apr 15, 2006 17:35 from Faunus
Everybody, let’s all make a pact that none of us will go meet DaAfrican in real life and force him at gunpoint to make easter egs and give his children chocolate bunnies. Maybe that will solve his problem.

[Bible And Christianity> msg #144972

Apr 15, 2006 17:37 from Gwynn
OK. I make a pact that if I ever meet Da African in real life, I’ll force him at gunpoint to give his children chocolate and make them cute little dyed eggs. Damn, wait, I’ve gotten something wrong, haven’t I? See, this is probably why it’s a bad idea for me to make pacts and stuff.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144973

Apr 15, 2006 20:13 from Consumer
“I see no problem with co-opting cultural norms to become a part of Christian culture. ”

Its a slipery slope! I blame the English translations of scripture for corrupting Christianity. First language adaptations then chocalate bunnies. what next?!?!!!1111oneone
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144975

Apr 16, 2006 07:42 from DaAfrican
Jubilee>

Maybe you are and maybe you aren’t. However, I believe that a lot of this cooptation of pagan festivals from Valentine’s and St. Patrick’s Day to Easter, Halloween & Christmas are driven not so much by religious institutions but by capitalist corporations who stand to make money from the sale of cards, candy, gifts and other goods.

The reason why many Christians celebrate some of these formerly pagan holy days and NOT celebrate other ones is not solely by their own choice, but by the choices made for them by corporations who care nothing about the pagan OR Christian origin of these holy days. Their purpose is outside the purview of religion or spiritual meaning and is really about profit.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144984

Apr 16, 2006 08:31 from Jubilee
DaAfrican>

Perhaps *now* that is true, but it looks to me like you have suddenly changed your stance on the issue.

You’ve gone from saying that these holidays oughtn’t to be celebrated because they were originally pagan in nature, to saying that these holidays oughtn’t to be celebrated because they’re too capitalistic in nature.

Those are two very different positions, and it would be helpful - to me, at least - if you might possibly state which you are actually supporting. If it’s both, that’s fine, but don’t muddy the conversation by changing tacks in the middle of things.

As for capitalism, I agree. These holidays have all become far too consumer-driven. The same can be said for Christianity, period.

What, the fact that I got my bookmark at a Christian bookstore and it has a Bible verse on it makes it better than a bookmark I got at Chapters? I don’t think so. All a bookmark does is hold your place in the book you’re reading.

We market everything, from the churches to the services to the faith itself. People are turned off by that - at least, that’s what I’ve seen amongst my own friends. I refused to purchase anything that had “WWJD” stamped on it for as long as the hype was really big. Not so much because I don’t like “being a part of something” as because I don’t need a freaking *bracelet* to remind me to do my best to emulate Christ in my everyday life.

This is the damage we must deal with in the church today. It’s a result of existing in a consumer-driven, capitalistic society.

To bring this back to Christmas and Easter and the like…

Yes, they have been co-opted by our capitalistic society. First some traditions were co-opted from pagans by Christians. Then the holidays themselves were co-opted from Christians by capitalists. I’m sure the people who first did that were Christians themselves.

But I fail to see how this impacts our ability to observe the glory and holiness of these days/events. As I posted last night, my favourite Easter service is the Vigil on Holy Saturday. Of all the holy days of the Christian year, Holy Saturday and Pentecost are the two that I love most. And neither of *them* have been co-opted by capitalists.

Well, not yet, anyway.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144985

Apr 16, 2006 08:46 from Mackerel

“However, I believe that a lot of this cooptation of pagan festivals from Valentine’s and St. Patrick’s Day to Easter, Halloween & Christmas are driven not so much by religious institutions but by capitalist corporations who stand to make money from the sale of cards, candy, gifts and other goods.”

Isn’t this impossible historically? Capitalism is just a few hundred years old. The holidays were established centuries before that. It’s a ridiculous theory.

[Bible And Christianity> msg #144986

Apr 16, 2006 09:07 from DaAfrican
Jubilee>

My original position still stands. I still think that the practice of changing clearly pagan celebrations into nominal Christian *holy days* with the pagan symbols intact is troublesome.

However, I also believe it is time for Christian celebraters to acknowledge that much of their celebration of these formerly pagan holidays has a lot to do with the success of capitalist marketing and less to do with how successful the Catholics were at “redeeming” the pagan holidays.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144987

Apr 16, 2006 08:45 from Vanity
Valentine’s day is not a “pagan festival”, but the feast of the martyr Saint Valentine, commemorating the day he was born again through blood into the Kingdom of Heaven.
St. Patrick’s day is also not a “pagan festival”, but commemorates the death of Patrick, the apostle of Ireland, on March 17, 493. These dates are, accurate or not, commemorations of historical events. They are not “formerly pagan holy days”.
Halloween is a different case, both because the approximate date does have some calendarical significance (being about halfway between the autumn equinox and the winter solstice), and because the Feast of All Saints is itself of late date (it was first celebrated on May 13, the anniversary of the rededication of the Pantheon in Rome as the Church of the Virgin and All the Saints, in 609; the date was only changed to November 1 in 835) and the belief in the day before (and sometimes after) All Saints as a day when wicked spirits roamed the earth and illicit magic was particularly effective is of even later origin.
This, however, belongs more to the realm of folk religion than paganism in particular; many of the claims, made by both fundamentalist Christians and neo-pagans about the pagan connections of Hallowe’en are either exaggerated or false.
Christmas is the most complicated instance, because even though the date was assigned relatively early, it had to compete with a large number of variant dates for the Nativity of Jesus. Much has been made about the supposed coincidence of the date of Dec. 25 with that of other pagan holidays. The relative priority of these relative to the Christian holiday is unclear, and if the Christian choice of Dec. 25 was influenced by paganism, it is more likely to have been by way of competition than by way of imitation. It is also possible that the date of the Nativity was calculated from the date of the Annunciation (March 25) rather than vice versa, in which case it really has nothing to do with the pagan holidays directly at all. The most probable explanation, to my mind, is that Dec. 25 was chosen as a well-known and easily memorable date, as recognizable to the Romans as July 4 to Americans; and that several religions, including the Christians, made use of it for that reason.
It seems to me to be sloppy scholarship to equate *seasonally significant days* with “pagan holidays”. Despite what I may have said earlier , pagans did not *really* invent the seasons, and changes in season and fixed points in the solar year are noted by *all* cultures that have the knowledge to calculate them, and sometimes they are used as convenient reference points for the assignment of religious holidays. There is nothing intrinsically “pagan” about this; it is simply a convenience.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144988

Apr 16, 2006 09:13 from DaAfrican
Mackerel>

Only if you’re short-sighted. The strength of holidays and celebrations sometimes expands, but more often these holidays begin to diminish in reverence.

Therefore, it is highly probable that these holidays (especially Valentine’s and St. Patrick’s Day) would be relatively unnoticed in MODERN times if not for the engine of capitalism that keeps them moving.

Moreover, the fact that Christmas is the most popular holiday in the world is not about the triumph of Jesus Christ over Allah, Buddha, Krishna, Confucius, and Oludamare. It is about the triumph of Western capitalism.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144989

Apr 16, 2006 09:14 from Peccavimus
Except that the symbols of Easter aren’t really all that pagan. The egg is used because it was one of a number of foods forbidden during lent, and therefore a treat (much in the same way we use chocolate now). The bunny can be traced back to 16th Century Germany, hardly a pagan hotbed. [Yes, I know that to say 16th Century Germany is to make an anachronism, but you know what I mean]. The combination of bunny and egg you see around this time of year can be traced back to the eldrich paganism of the 19th Century. About the only thing I can find that’s explicitly pagan about this particular festival is that it falls in the spring, and therefore is a spring festival, and of course, as Faunus pointed out, any celebration or acknowledgement of the turning of the seasons is ipso facto pagan.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144990

Apr 16, 2006 09:19 from DaAfrican
Vanity>

I will never be as precise as you might like me to be. Valentine’s Day and St. Patrick’s Day may not be formerly “pagan holidays.” However, pagan symbolism is inextricably connected to both days. From Cupid to leprechauns, it seems clear that these holidays were used to convert the non-Christians (who probably believed in Cupid and leprechauns and pther pagan stuff) into Christians.

Of course, their former beliefs have crept in and I would argue, have taken over the popular form of the celebrations.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144991

Apr 16, 2006 09:14 from Jubilee
DaAfrican>

And I still say that adding this new point (”I also believe it is time for Christian celebraters to acknowledge that much of their celebration of these formerly pagan holidays has a lot to do with the success of capitalist marketing and less to do with how successful the Catholics were at “redeeming” the pagan holidays.”) simply muddies the waters.

Are you upset that Christians co-opted the paganistic trappings for their own use, or are you upset that it’s become so commercialised?

They are two decidedly different issues, and yes, you can be upset by both, but you can’t logically use one to argue the other because they are separate from each other.

*My* celebration of Easter may take place mainly on Easter Sunday, but I would rather celebrate it at the Vigil on Holy Saturday (and I may switch to that observance entirely at some point in the future). And, yes, I received an Easter parcel from my parents this week that contains plenty of chocolate for myself and my brother. And, yes, my brother and I are planning to have a happy time of family togetherness for dinner tonight, complete with ham and scalloped potatoes and veggies and hot cross buns for dessert. And, yes, I grew up having Easter candy hunts in our living room in the afternoon of Easter Sunday.

I don’t think any of that is *wrong*.

I also do not agree that the *when* and the extraneous *how* (trappings) of Easter are either the sole result of capitalism *or* the co-opting of pagan holidays. But we knew that already.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144992

Apr 16, 2006 09:24 from DaAfrican
Peccavimus>

I have read a number of sources that disagree with your origin of the bunny and egg. This is the first I have heard of these being formed by Christian theology.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144993

Apr 16, 2006 09:27 from Peccavimus
DaAfrican> Yeah, a lot of people like to make shit up.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144994

Apr 16, 2006 09:26 from DaAfrican
Jubilee>

Don’t mean to muddy the waters but whether you see them as 2 different problems or (as I do) part of one single problem, my position remains. Yes, I would have a problem with the KKK attempting to co-opt MLK Day into a holiday that was more suitable for their own beliefs. And I would also have a problem with my church trying to co-opt the Nation of Islam’s Saviour’s Day that celebrates their savior Wallace Fard Muhammad (Feb. 25) into a Christian holiday that celebates the REAL Saviour - Jesus Christ.

I think most Christians would understand why I would have a problem with that. But, when I say the EXACT same thing about Easter, people say, “c’mon, you’re being silly.”
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144995

Apr 16, 2006 09:35 from Peccavimus
You’re not saying the exact same thing about Easter. You’re saying “I hallucinate that bunnies are a pagan symbol, there’s a bunny in Easter, ergo Easter is pagan and capitalistic and I wont’ celebrate it.” Which is fine, celebrate or not as you like, but recognize that anyone who cares to look it up will find it all a bit odd.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144996

Apr 16, 2006 09:37 from Jubilee
Thanks, Pecc! You are making a lot of sense this morning - which is a miracle, given how tired I really ought to be…

DaAfrican>

Okay, let’s just move the feat for St Matthias the Apostle over one day, from February 24 to February 25, and have at it.

Is your problem more with the co-opting of things in various directions or with the RCC having started the whole co-opting trend?

You would probably have a problem with the song “Tourniquet” being sung as a worship song at a youth service, too. I don’t. That song is decidedly worshipful. As are a number of Evanescence songs.

But then, the lines are (and should be) blurred between culture and faith. “Called to be in the world but not of it” doesn’t mean we live in this world and refuse to participate in things that “aren’t Christian”. It means we participate fully in the culture we find ourselves in, striving to bring Christ into every moment we can.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144997

Apr 16, 2006 09:43 from Vanity
“From Cupid to leprechauns, it seems clear that these holidays were used to convert the non-Christians (who probably believed in Cupid and leprechauns and pther pagan stuff) into Christians.”

It may be “clear”, but it’s not *true*. The cupid-symbol was not in any way connected to Valentine’s Day until *after* the day was associated with young would-be lovers, in the late Middle Ages, when there weren’t any pagans around; the association was made because cupids were a well-known artistic symbol of erotic love. Now, you could write quite a thick book about the artistic survival of pagan themes and images, and their enthusiastic acceptance and re-emergence in late Renaissance art, but at the end of the day what is true now is what was true then: these are conventional artistic symbols, drained of any overt religious meaning, and in the highly religious, Christian society of renaissance and post-renaissance Europe, they were only acceptable as symbols *because* there was no perceived danger of people taking them as religious rather than allegorical figures.
As for the leprechauns, they are only one of several random figures of “Irishness” that are used to symbolize St. Patrick’s Day in its American incarnation as a day for celebrating Irish-American ethnic pride. I’m sure that very few of the green-beer-drinking, plastic-shamrock-wearing one-half-to-one-sixteenth Irish-Americans who commemorate the day think it has anything to do with paganism at all. Nor do most of them believe in leprechauns — at least not before the fifth pint!
[Bible And Christianity> msg #144998

Apr 16, 2006 15:00 from King Of Kale
DaAfrican> I’m curious, are you married? If so, did you engage in such Pagan practices as exchanging wedding rings (Egyptian & Roman), serving each other cake (Norse & Roman), throwing rice (Assyrian & Egyptian), having bridesmaids, groomsmen, and ushers (Roman), a best man (Germanic Goth), asking the bride’s father for her hand in marriage (Roman), etc.

It’s a little difficult to have anything Christian that doesn’t have at least some ancient Pagan roots. Sometimes, when something is the cultural norm, it gets absorbed into the practices of subcultures in the area. Almost everybody who is married wears a wedding ring on their “ring finger” in the U.S., regardless of religion. Yet some will tell you that it’s on that particular finger for a religious reason (there are both Christian and Pagan explanations for this, it’s difficult to tell which came first). Most people, however, just wear it there because that’s what everybody else does. *shrugs* Sometimes that’s why religions adopt certain practices. Why did Catholic Irish start using the term Lughnasadh to refer to the harvest season, when it contains a Pagan deity reference? It could have been that they were trying to trick Pagans into converting or such, but more likely, that’s simply what everyone called that time of year.

I think it’s sometimes difficult to judge historic motives, origins, etc. The modern understanding and use is probably a better guideline.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145002

Apr 16, 2006 16:37 from Tomte
Wow, some really cool scroll here.

I have one question that arises from it for me:

Can something be popular and pure at the same time?

It seems like much of the criticism of Christmas, Easter, and other popular holidays arises from the popularity of them among the general culture, not just Christians.

Once something spills over out of the Christian subculture into the mainstream, then Christianity can no longer control the meanings assigned, and you get capitialism, consumerism, secularism, and all kinds of “isms” putting their stamp on the holiday.

I’ll close with a passage out of Isaiah, which I found particularly edifying in church this morning, as it validated celebration, which took place at our house after the service.

On this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wines, of rich food filled with marrow, of well-aged wines strained clear. And he will destroy on this mountain the shroud that is cast over all peoples, the sheet that is spread over all nations; he will swallow up death forever. Then the Lord God will wipe away the tears from all faces, and the disgrace of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the Lord has spoken.

It will be said on that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, so that he might save us. This is the Lord for whom we have waited; let us be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145003

Apr 16, 2006 17:07 from Jubilee
“Can something be popular and pure at the same time?”

I think that depends on your definition of the word “pure”.

*I* would say yes, but I think I’ve already made it fairly clear that I’m not your garden-variety evangelical (if I can be called one, even).

Oy… there’s a lot of stuff all flying through my head at once right now. Trying to catch a thought is tricky.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145004

Apr 16, 2006 21:15 from Woolfie
That’s some pretty hindsight looking thinking there, DaAfrican. Valentine’s day occurs in mid-Feb, and thus must be based on the pagan beliefs. Instead of Valentine’s day being based on the oral tradition of the death of St. Valentine, and the pagan stuff associated with the time is why the romance moved in.

Instead, I’m willing to bet that the “pagan’s” co-opted Valentine’s rather than the Christian’s co-opting the pagan holidays. Sometimes that happens too. Take Christmas for example. Lots of the “christmas” traditions have little to do with the religious celebration of Christ’s birth. Yet those traditions do little to take away the importance of the holiday to many devout christians.

Or what about St. Patricks. That old roman was pretty good at finding things in the local culture to bridge the culture gap to Christianity. Such as using the three leaf clover to represent the trinity, giving us a symbol insepratable from the green isle. Christian co-opting pagan beliefs or a savy preacher understanding the audience?
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145008

Apr 16, 2006 21:25 from DaAfrican
Woolfie>

A talented preacher that understood his audience.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145010

Apr 16, 2006 21:26 from Woolfie
Then why the problem with the “trappings” of St. Patricks Day? Celebrate the man who converted the druids.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145011

Apr 16, 2006 21:27 from DaAfrican
Woolfie>

St. Patty’s doesn’t seem to be like Valentine’s, Easter, Halloween & Christmas.
It seems to be a legit religious holiday not based on pagan origins.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145012

Apr 16, 2006 21:30 from Woolfie
And yet, St. Valentine is a real person. Christ did die and was resurected. The day after All Hallow’s Eve really is All Hallow’s Day and Christ was born of a human mother.

Now, are the “trappings” surrounding those days so different than the “trappings” surrounding St. Patrick’s Day? They all have some pagan connections somewhere along the way, yet they each have important connections to Christian Theology.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145013

Apr 16, 2006 21:33 from DaAfrican
Woolfie>Sounds good, but despite the fact that I don’t deify or quasi-deify saints, I also don’t see a need to replace pagan celebrations with nominally Christian holy days.

However, I don’t view these celebrations as sins, they are just irksome and probably keep alive more pagan symbols than they eliminate.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145015

Apr 16, 2006 21:37 from Woolfie
Wait. Just a little while ago you were upset at the crash commercialism that negates the “holiness” of the holidays.

Are pagan symbols more powerful than christian ones?
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145016

Apr 16, 2006 21:38 from DaAfrican
Faunus>

According to my wikipedia, that’s exactly the legend/story behind Gelasius’ choice for Valentine’s Day.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145017

Apr 16, 2006 21:35 from Faunus
“St. Patty’s doesn’t seem to be like Valentine’s, Easter, Halloween &
Christmas. It seems to be a legit religious holiday not based on pagan origins.”

Ironically, St. Patty’s day is not really considered a religious holiday much anymore, but a time to celebrate kitsch Irishness and drink green beer.

Neither is Halloween.

When’s the last time you heard someone say “I can’t wait for St. Patrick’s Day, when I can pray my rosary and read the Saint’s Life!” or “I can’t wait for Halloween, where I will prepare to venerate all the saints on Hallowmas!”

Easter is of course the premier Christian holy day, with Christmas a close second.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145018

Apr 16, 2006 21:39 from DaAfrican
Woolfie>

Yes.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145019

Apr 16, 2006 21:41 from Woolfie
Ah! Now I begin to understand.

DaAfrican, can I ask what “brand” of Christianity you proscribe too?
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145020

Apr 16, 2006 21:40 from Faunus
Not that Wikipedia is necessarily right, but it marks the “Pope Gelasius I vs the Lupercalia” story as a *legend* (not a historical fact) — a recent legend, because only in relatively recent historical times (14th century AD, while Gelasius was 5th century AD) has there been any connection between St. Valentine’s Day and love/romance.

In other words, it’s a fiction.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145021

Apr 16, 2006 21:40 from DaAfrican
Faunus>

I am sure that a significant number of people DO still recognize St. Patrick’s Day as a religious holiday. And, since that is how it originated, they are the legitimate celebraters.

I think you’re right about Halloween, though. However, too many fundamentalists have demonized Halloween as if it the most unholy of all days. This when far more madness occurs at Christmastime than any other holiday.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145022

Apr 16, 2006 21:44 from DaAfrican
Woolfie>

I am just a Christian, no demonination.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145023

Apr 16, 2006 21:48 from Woolfie
Let me ask another question then, what denomination (and I did notice how you spelled it) does the church you attend regularly claim to be a part of?
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145025

Apr 16, 2006 21:47 from Faunus
Just out of curiosity, DaA, what does this test think you are?

http://selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php?client=christiandenom

It says I’m Episcopal, ELCA, Eastern Orthodox, or LCMS, followed by Wesleyan or Papist. It says I’m farthest from the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

[Bible And Christianity> msg #145026

Apr 16, 2006 21:49 from DaAfrican
We are nondenominational. Probably sharing a profound connection to Black Baptist churches, with a little bit in common with groups as widely disparate as the RCC, the WCG and the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

We have views which would be clearly fundamentalist, and other views that would be considered heretical by the fundies and the mainlines.

Basically, we are a church attempting to follow the Word of God.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145027

Apr 16, 2006 21:56 from Faunus
“views that would be considered heretical by the fundies and the mainlines.”

Oooh,share the heretical ones! Agreement is boring.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145029

Apr 16, 2006 21:58 from DaAfrican
Woolfie>

I’m a Mennonite.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145030

Apr 16, 2006 22:08 from DaAfrican
Faunus>

I’m farthest from the Unitarian Universalist
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145033

Apr 16, 2006 23:22 from Jubilee
Well, I did the test and apparently I’m a member of the wrong church!

I got Seventh-Day Adventist first, then Evangelical Lutheran Church, then Methodist/Wesleyan Church, and *then* Episcopal/Anglican.

I would go with the non-first choice.

I’m farthest from Unitarian Universalism, though. Go me!
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145034

Apr 16, 2006 23:30 from Band Girl
Me too, Jubilee. I got Episcopal/Anglican first, *then* Evangelical Lutheran, then Missouri Synod (wha?), then Methodist/Wesleyan, then Eastern Orthodox (hmm!). Furthest from JW.
[Bible And Christianity> msg #145035

It appears that our discussion has moved into defining ourselves as Christians. So I will stop quoting the forum now. I hope you got a good laugh out of some of this stuff!